K: When God is formless how to meditate on Him?

V: Meditation is of two kinds. One is about worldly things and living beings and other one is about God who is beyond senses and All-controlling. We meditate about worldly things when we see them or get parted from them. For ex, I saw a woman in Calcutta. We became friendly. Next, I saw her in Bombay after five years. Immediately I remember her as the woman I met at Calcutta. Secondly, when we part ourselves. For ex, my friend left for tour. Frequently, I would remember where she could be now? When we are together the question of meditation does not arise. Because how could we meditate when she is already before me? But when she parted she is remembered. These are all about worldly things. But the meditation about God is different. To meditate means is to keep mind away from materials and subjects. In other words, zeroing on Soul whose strength is spread over mind and senses. So long the mind and senses are preoccupied with worldly things the soul cannot meditate on God. It is necessary therefore before undertaking meditation that the mind and senses are not allowed by habit to be drawn towards materials and subjects. Meditation is also called as Dhyana, is the seventh step in Yoga. First, yama Niyama Asana, pranayama, pratyahara, Dharana, are to be tackled first. Then the man becomes qualified for undertaking Dhyana. As per rules, meditation is mastered after the six steps are overcome. When there is a distance of seven steps before mastering Dhyana how is it that it could be achieved through Idols first?

K: The mind is fickle. How it can stay on the formless? Idols are required for staying of mind. Mind cannot become steady without a formless object?

V: You are innocent. Mind could stay put only in formless. It cannot become steady in form. This is because, the object with which a form is made of elements of sound, form, touch and liquid etc, Hence mind becomes unsteady after getting stuck in these things. If mind could become steady because of form then the entire world which is having a form and logically the minds of all should have become steady. But this is not the case. The more the minds getting entangled in worldly objects the more unsteady the mind becomes. If you examine still more carefully, mind does not become steady at all. The moment the mind becomes still, death follows. Frankly speaking, mind getting inwards from outside transactions could be stated as the steadiness of mind. So long man lives, his mind would be always in momentum.

K: Are you of the opinion that people who meditate thru Idols are under illusion? Through Idols the unsteadiness of mind is kept away. Hence people worship idols of Ram, Krishna, etc.

V: I have already told that meditation of God is not possible thru Idols. Dhyana means mind being away from subjects. All Idols have all the five subjects in a disorganized way. Looking at them roughly, they have FORMS. Fruits, flowers, milk etc are offered to them and hence there is a juice present. Fruits have scent or smell. Blowing of Bells or conches has an element of sound. The Idols are made of five elements, like, sound, smell, touch, form, and liquid. Then how the Idols can keep away the unsteadiness of mind? People, who worship Krishna’s idol for steadiness of mind, should

Ponder over the fact, that it was Krishna who was present in full life before Arjuna and still the mind of Arjuna was wavering. He tells Krishna,

Chanchalam manah krshna pramadhi balavadrudam|
tasyaham nigrahm manye vayoriva sudhushkam|| [Geetha]

Meaning: The mind is fickle, agitated and strong. I find it is as difficult as to control the air.

Krishna replies.
Asamshayam mahabaho mano durvigraham chalam|
Abhyasena tu kaunteya vairagyena cha gruhyate|| {Geetha}

Meaning: Arjuna! It is not doubted that the mind is very fickle and obdurate. But it is controlled by regular practice and detachment.

Given the fact that when Arjuna was seeing Krishna day in and day out and in spite of his mind was still restless, how the imaginary images of Krishna could instill steadiness of mind?

K: Then should we not worship Idols at all?

V: We should do Idol worship [Murthy puja] i.e. the inanimate Idols should be worshipped in the manner deserving for an inanimate matter. Similarly, the live i.e. Conscious entities should also be worshipped in a manner befitting for living beings.

K: I did not catch your point. How worshiping of the inanimate [Jada] should be done as deserving to a Jada matter and Conscious [Chetan] beings in appropriate manner as deserving to Chetan entities?

V: The term Pooja [worship] has many meaning as per its root verb and also in common parlance. For, ex, the meaning of the term Pooja is to do honor whereas with reference to a jada matter it means to use the inanimate matter judiciously or wisely and to safeguard it from destruction. Now think over the meaning attached to worship of a Jada matter. It means to keep them in order, to safeguard them, to ensure that they are not broken and do not get soiled. This is the intended meaning here. Bowing before all things, offering fruits and flowers is not thought of here. When it is said that a noble man is to be worshipped the intention here is that he should be honored with food and gifts and does not mean flinging of fruits, flowers, water etc at him. Further in the context of fraudulent, the worship of him conveys the meaning that he should be thrashed soundly and not otherwise. So here in one context, Pooja means altruism and in other context punishment. Likewise in respect of jada matter i.e. Idol-worship what is intended here is that these Idols are to be kept safely and offering of light, prostrating before them is not at all the desired intention. This is because that these Idols being inanimate cannot grasp the reverence of a doer nor in a position to receive what is offered to them in the form of flowers and sweets. Conscious beings in the form Father, mother, teacher, Sanyasi, advisor, and scores of men similar to them should be done Pooja i.e. They are to be honored with fruits, flowers, food etc. In other words Pooja here is to be understood as doing an honor or respect.

K: God is said to be everywhere. He is also found to be in Idols. In that case why Idols should not be worshipped? What is worshipped is not stone. The all pervading God is worshipped therein,
.

V: It is true that since god is found to be everywhere he is found to be in Idols also. But it is not necessary that He should be worshipped everywhere and in all things. It is the soul that offers Pooja and the object being to meet with God. Meeting between the two is possible only where they could have a chance to meet. God is no doubt is in Idols. But the soul which desires meet with God is not there in Idols. Then how could there be a Meet? Yes. God and Soul are both present in the hearts of every human being. Meet between these two could take place here only i.e. hearts. Hence the man who wants to meet God is required ensure that Pooja is done in his heart after controlling the mind and senses. Now look! Can we drink water everywhere presuming that God is there in water? God is present in Lions and Snakes. Is it okay to go nearby them? Hence it is clear ignorance and superstition to believe that God is in Idols and hence He should be worshipped there. God is in poison. Then should we eat it? No. Only such things that are eatable are to eaten. Idol worshippers think that they are doing Pooja to the all pervading God in Idols. But frankly speaking, there can be no Pooja of the all pervading God in Idols. You may ask how? God is present also in those Pooja items that are placed on Idols. For ex, sky [void] is present in a pot. It is present in brick also. Could he hit the Void by throwing the brick at the pot? Since the void is pervading everywhere the brick cannot hit the void rather the pot gets broken. Not the Void. Because the void is present both in the pot and brick. Similar is the case of Pooja things that are placed on the Idol. These Pooja items are deposited over Idols and not on God for the reason God is pervading in Pooja items also.

V: It is not necessary that we need to put fruits and flowers on God. But looking at Idols reverentially we become aware of the grace and glory of all pervading God.

K: This is talk in the extreme. How could we get the knowledge of all pervading God, his grace and glory? Just think. There is oil in til seed. But what is seen? Is it til or oil? Apparently only the til seed is seen. You don’t see the oil in it even when seen with utmost reverence. When the oil is seen? Only when the til seed is grinded the oil is seen. Similarly what is seen in Idol are the bare Idol only and not the all pervading God. Only when you cut the bond with Idol and start searching God in the heart then only God is perceived. Now about the knowledge of glory of God while looking at Idols. How the glory of God is seen in the man made Idols? In fact the greatness of man who has carved the lovely Idols will alone be seen when looking at Idols. If you want to see the grace and glory of God observe the entire Creation with a rational attitude. You will observe the beauty and greatness even in small things. What mark of God’s greatness is there in the man made inanimate Idols?

K: Sister! We get the results as we believe. Even you don’t agree that Idols are not God you can get the results by thinking God in them. Secondly, before we ascend to the heights, we cannot do it so instantly and we require steps. I consider Murthy Pooja as the first stepping stone for the realization of God. Hence, if anybody were to make the imaginary pieces of God and worship them there is no fault in it

V: You should know that faith does not alter the truth of an object. If somebody due to ignorance thinks or believes that lime water is milk can he churn butter out of it? Will the stomach gets it’s full by visualizing a stone as a Roti? If by mere thinking could get the desired things then the people

would not have been found to be so sorrowful. We would not have witnessed the people laboring hard to get things they desire. A belief becomes a belief only when it stands on Truth. Otherwise it is a non-belief. Supposing if a person were to consume laxative pills believing them as medicinal
Tablets can he not get the purging? Hence it is sheer ignorance to say that we can get the results by mere believing contrary to the hard facts.

Look! The priests of Somnath temple had a belief that the inanimate Idol was a veritable lord Mahadev himself. Hence, when Mohamed Gazni came in aggression the priests were sitting idle. They started advising the people, to do Somnath Jap and there was no need to fight as the Lord himself would vanquish the enemy forces. What terrible consequences followed because of this belief and trust are well known to the students of history. Why Somnath temple? Other temples also were destroyed and the Idols broken and tons of money was looted and taken away all because of this belief and trust. Still people did not get rid of their superstitions. The irony is, People believed in powers of the Idols which were incapable of doing anything but reposed no faith in the Conscious entities[ people] who were capable of achieving anything. What a shame? This is the main reason for the downfall of our country and community. Now you would have understood how sorrowful the outcome of belief borne out of ignorance is. Your statement that Murthy pooja as the stepping stone for realization of God is totally erroneous. Yes. Worship of Conscious bodies could of course be treated as the stepping stone of God’s realization in a limited manner but the same cannot be accepted in the context of worship of inanimate Idols. The inanimate objects could be pavements for climbing Himalayas but how they could be stepping stone in God’s realization when they [pavements] are void of any knowledge? The alphabets A, B, C, D are the basic steps to learn English. But if anyone believes this as basic steps for learning Hindi or Sanskrit how could he learn these languages? Hence he could climb to the target thru things which is considered as its steps. The steps for God’s realization are selfless service, Satsang, the eight paths of Yoga [Yama, Niyama, Asana, pranayama, pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana, and Samadhi]. Only the regular practice of these steps faithfully can ensure the God’s realization.

You asked me what are the faults involved in worshipping the imaginary Idols of God. The faults are many. They are as under.

1. Man deceives himself by assuming certain real things in imaginary or artificial objects. Even Animals, Birds, insects know that artificial things cannot accomplish the functions of the Real. Throw a mouse made of mud or rubber before a cat. The cat never pounces upon the artificially made mouse. A bee never stops on a flower made of paper. Similarly the animals never aspire on artificial things. But a man who claims to be very intelligent creature among all animals longs to obtain the maximum of good things out of artificial things. Can there be a bigger paradox than this?
2. Man imagines his requirements are also due to this imaginary man made Idols. Since man needs food he also feels that God also requires food and therefore presents eatables. He dresses them as he himself dresses. He bathes the god as he takes bath. He puts God to sleep and awakens him. He puts on ornaments on God as he tries to put on himself. When man is of the belief that God also is in need of formers requirements then what sort of upliftment that could be expected of this God? When

God is himself is the subject of many requirements how he could fulfill the requirements of others? Can the blind lead the blind? No, Never.
3. God is one. But the Idols are many. Each group bound by their own tradition has carved out gods as per their belief. Consequently, there are inter-group clashes destroying national unity. There are other hundreds of faults.

K: Then is it your opinion that we should neither carve out Idols nor worship them? When we see the peaceful, serene and detached Idols of great men we get peace; further they make impact on us.

V: It is not my opinion that we should not carve out Idols at all. Yes we should make Idols that is what I say. By keeping the photos of great men or making their Idols, we can perpetuate their memories. However it does not mean that these replicas should be worshipped like Conscious beings or they should be prayed for grant of favors treating them as either Gods or Gods representatives. How can these grant favors as done by Conscious beings or God? Can a father who is dead shower as much love as he did while being alive to his son? Is the body of the father which fed his son so lovingly while being alive is of any use after death? What difference is there between carved out Idols and the dead body? The Idols do not putrefy whereas the dead body starts putrefying soon after death. This is all the difference and in respect of others matters there is no difference. Pooja means proper use. If goods are not put to use properly then they get ruined causing harm to the man. How you may ask? Listen! There is a devotee of river Ganga.He worships it day in and day out. He offers flowers and Sweets to the River. He sings praises of Ganga always. But he does not know how to swim. One day he gets into the deep river. Will not he get drowned? However great devotee of the river he might be, since he does not know swimming he is sure to get drowned. Then there is other person who does not treat Ganga as mother. He has killed somebody. His clothes have become bloody. He jumps into the river and Swims across the river. How this happened? The reason is simple. He knows how to make use of the river. The first one was doing a wrong Pooja. Hence the river drowned him and saved the other. There would be a section of worshippers of Ganga. Taking bath in the river, offering flowers etc is treated as worship. Every year they shell out hundreds of rupees to Railways. They also get killed in stampede.

Then there is other section of Ganga worshippers. They make canals. Through irrigation they produce abundant crops, and produce power in the form of Electricity. They never did take bath in the river. They got Ganga in their taps at home. Since they knew the correct usage of the river [a Jada matter] how could they keep idle? Any number of examples could be given about the unconscious matter [jada] similar to Ganga. Now about the impact on seeing some Idols. Good or bad influence is not got by seeing the Idols. It is so because of the inherent Sanskars. A Hindu goes to a Ram or Krishna temple. He automatically bows before the Idols. This is because he would have imbibed the history of these personages and also learnt the way they vanquished evil persons like Ravan and Kans. These sanskars could be either through Books or by being heard. But before the same Hindu if you place a statue of Confucius of China, he does not get influenced, nor does it induce any faith in him, the reason being he does not know anything about Confucius. Hence he does not bow before this statue. A Muslim does not bow before any Hindu deities. Why? Because that Muslim has no Sanskars. On the other hand he finds an awful looking Muslim in a photo more pleasing for the reason that Sanskars that the Muslim appearing in that photo is looked as “momin” [Help to Islam] is strongly embedded in his mind. Hence, it is the Sanskars that makes an impact on

Mind while seeing some Idols. If Idols were to make impact it should have done it so to all the viewers of Idols and got peace. But this does not happen.

V: Don’t they show Maps in Schools? They disclose the knowledge of the entire world thru the medium of small Maps. Likewise, the small Idol could disclose the knowledge of God? Is it not?

V: Dear Sister! The Map is made of the world which has a shape. Hence we get knowledge of rivers, mountains, sea, cities, Railways etc. God is omnipresent and formless. Hence it is not possible to make an Idol of Him. Hence the Knowledge of God is not obtained.

K: Syllables and sound are formless. But we make a sign of it and students are taught. If we don’t design the shape of syllables and sound how could else the students learn knowledge?

V: Syllables and sound are not seen by the eyes. But they are heard of course. The eyes choose the subject matter of its concern in order to make the subject known to ears. But how could it receive as its subject matter as it’s when the relevant subject matter is not theirs? This is understood by experience only. It is also not correct to say only when imaginary sign is accompanied by sound, Education could be imparted. If this were to be correct, we would not have seen learned blind men at all. They would not have seen how A, B, C, D alphabets looked like. However we see many blind men well versed in English, Hindi, etc. Secondly the imaginary signs are known as Varna [Letters]. Not syallables.What is written is letter. It has a form. That which is spelt is syllable and this is formless.

It is also not correct that thru the signs [which have a form] one could get the knowledge of formless. This is because the formless sound is first spelt and then sign is written and told to recognize the sound with a particular sign. If your logic is accepted then it amounts to driving the knowledge of formless God first and then asking the student to recognize God in a particular form! When the knowledge of formless God is obtained already then why worships the Idols? Is not the God realization an object of worship? When God is realized why worship without a reason?

K: Good! Time is formless. But people get their jobs done thru the Clock.

V: Clock is not the form of time. Just as we become aware of the time with the movement of Sun, similar work is done through a Clock. The entire functioning of Clock is dependent on Sun.

K: How to meditate on Formless? When an Idol is present before, we keep on meditating. Now we sit for meditation of Formless and closed the eyes. Nothing is before us. Then how the mind can remain steady?

V: There are two types of world; one is spiritual and another physical. The Soul is related to the spiritual. Physical is related to elements like Earth, water, Fire etc. Let us remember that God related subjects are spiritual in nature. Where is the scope of spiritual thinking when your mind keeps roaming here and there while doing Meditation? What are remembered are physical things only? Spiritual meditation could take place when the thinking of worldly objects having form is set aside and the Soul is thought of being pervaded by God. There is no bar of space and time between God and Soul. What is far away is Knowledge. Once the obstacle of Knowledge gets removed God is beginning to be felt. It stays put when the minds desires. The mind stops on those things that are practiced. All works in the world is successfully got through practice only. We would have seen women carrying many water filled pots over their heads negotiating the uneven roads taking care to see that a not a drop of water is spilled over. Many boys and girls carefully walk on the wired thread while doing acrobatics. In circus, dogs and cats even fire bullets. This is all due to practice only. Many weaklings take cold bath in the biting winter but which is dreaded by musclemen. Like wise those who are habituated of thinking God and by practicing the Yama and Niyama they keep meditating on God for hours together near rivers and mountains. Those who have attained Samadhi keep meditating for days together. Do they meditate on any Idols? Not at all. If you think bit deeply, the mind does not rest on Idols at all. The minds keep wandering on the eyes, nose, and limbs of the Idols. When the Idols are not present, the transactions are drawn towards the Soul.

Sister! Kindly remember. Even if the mind were to rest on Idols, it rests on Idols only and not on God. Really speaking, God is formless and omnipresent. Hence close your eyes and start meditating on the meaning of OM with a feeling” that God is present everywhere and I am present in Him and He is also present in me” Keep repeating OM. Recite Gayathri Mantra or any other Vedic mantra and think deeply of its meaning. See how the mind is not brought to control.

K: If we buy sweets from sweet meat shop for a Rupee and eaten, it causes happiness. The Sweet is having a form. The taste we derive is formless. If we were to ask the vendor to provide one rupee taste how could he give that formless taste? This goes to show it is only through the material representation we could get the God’s Bliss.

V: That which is the taste of a matter is enjoyed when it is eaten. If Khova is eaten we get the taste of Khova. If a Laddu is eaten then we get the taste of Laddu only. There is a link of subject and its effect between Khova and its taste, and the link between them is not that of be pervaded and pervade. Khova is a subject and taste is its effect. However, the Idol and God are two different subjects. You know Khova through its taste. When God is not the quality of Idol how could God is felt thru the Idol? Further only when Khova is eaten then only its taste is derived. How a person could derive the taste of khova when it is artificially made of mud? Not possible. Similarly, only when god is experienced the God’s Bliss is obtained. Instead, if material representation is made of metal and mud in place of God how then the God’s bliss is obtained?

K: A currency Note with a King’s photo thereon is more comfortable for circulation. In a similar manner Murthy Pooja is also more comfortable.

V: First of all a King is a person with a body. Hence his photo can find a place in a currency Note. Whereas God is formless and his Photo cannot be made. Further, the Notes printed under the king’s authority are legal and can be easily being traded upon. Whosoever prints Notes against King’s authority could be jailed. Hence the proper and correct usage of forms and objects made by God is more rewarding. Making photos and stating that they are the material representation of God amounts to flouting the order of God which attempts to land the doer in darkness for several births.

K: We have heard in Mahabharata that Ekalavya learnt Archery by making the Idol of Dronacharya?

V: There was a person Dronacharya and his photo was possible. What Ekalavya did was to make the prototype of the master. He did not worship it in place of God. Secondly, the prototype did not

teach him archery. If that is the case why he should have practiced? He learnt the entire Archery thru his efforts and practice. Dronacharya was completely unaware of this development. When he came to know about his prototype he gave punishment. If photos or prototype were capable of imparting education then Vedas could be learnt by just putting up of the photo of Vedavyas. One should be able to get riches by just putting up the photo of Kubera. Do we learn anything other than inertness from the lifeless objects? A butler from his association with an Englishman learns to talk in English. A labour learns to make sweet dishes by working with a Sweet maker. By sitting near fire, the heat is felt. We get the quality of things that we are associated with. By associating with inert, lifeless idols people also got inertness and lost vitality. They were beaten. Temples were destroyed. Country was thrown to slavery and poverty. Because of this inertness the qualities of self-confidence and Action were lost.

K: Good! We have discussed the matter enough. Now tell me whether God is just and merciful? If yes, how both attributes could remain together? If mercy is shown justice gets affected. If Justice is shown then the mercy is lost.

V: Let us discuss this tomorrow.